Testimony given to the San Marcos REMHI team
[translation by Foundation For Human Rights in Guatemala - page numbers refer to original]
bg11055
REMHI, San Marcos
[the witness gives a background of years before the massacre - in the community of Pajapita]
...I would like to take this opportunity, now that you are here, to tell you my story, what I saw as I was growing up. These are the years when I began to make sense of things, the things I was witnessing. I heard people talk about the FAR [guerrilla] group. And I actually saw them, in the community of Pajapita. There is where my grandpa lived. I used to come to visit him. He used to talk about a group that was being organized in the village. We used to see the people as they came together at the beginning of the group's formation. Once they had organized, members of San Antonio, Las Flores joined them, most likely...
...But, they only joined them because they wanted to learn how to shoot weapons. They joined them because they wanted to steal ideas. They were not committed to fight. They were not thinking on defending other people's lives. They only had their own interest in mind. Once they were trained, they began to intimidate the neighbors. They would come at night to take things from them...
...For instance, they came to my grandpa's about four times. They were not looking for a lot of money; they would take the money he had made with the sale of a calf of a pig, which was about 12-15 quetzales at that time [about $ 5??]. If they saw him by the road trying to sell a quintal (100 lbs.) of coffee, they would come at night to get the money. "Where is the money from the coffee you sold?," they would ask...
...Then, someone must have complained, or something, and the authorities, the army showed up. They had with them a list with the names of people who bothered people. They even knew who the FAR people were...
...They were seen as thieves. If it wasn't the army it was the FAR. This all has happening as I was growing up. I must have been about 7 or 8 years old when the army was coming to kill people. They would kill them and leave them laying there...
...Some bodies would show up at the coffee plantations, on the pathways. Others would be left by the road. Others would be killed and left in their houses. Some were shot in the face or the chest. Some looked like sponges, full of bullet holes...
...My grandpa would then say, "See, who knows what kind of things he was up to? They stopped him now; they killed him." That is how delinquency was dealt with, the thieves who showed up...
WHAT YEAR WAS THAT?
...It was in 1975 and 1978, and then in 1980. Here in the village of Sucuchun we also hear about the guerrilla groups but they were called ORPA [Revolutionary Orginization of the People in Arms]. A lot of people joined it, but I already new what had happened in the other place...
...Also, my grandpa would tell me, " Look, is not good to get involved in this shit. Is not good to get involved with those groups. There are people who join them but can't take it for long. They then come back with other ideas. They don't come back to fight on behalf of the poor but to take from them...
[background of same types of things in Sacuchun]
...By then, there were rumors about ORPA in Sacuchun. As I remember, many neighbors joined it. Some joined them for a few days. Others would go just see what was going on. Some others would go to see what they could get. Over there they would get corn, rice, sugar and beans. They would get plenty -- whatever people could take with them. Other people would go to do business, because they could do fairly well. They would sell chickens, pork, meat, tamales. They would get paid fairly well, so they would rather take the business over there than to the village...
...That was how business got better over there. People who were getting trained, or people who were there just to pick up a weapon, would buy from the vendors. Though, some of these people then began to rob the farms. They would steal cows from the farms and then sell them to people from ORPA. Things began to get bad...
...People were stealing from the farm, maybe even members of ORPA. There were rumors that the animals were somewhere not far from the farms. If something was missing in Sacuchun, you could probably find it there. A cousin of mine told me that a trail led to a small hill near the Naranjo hill, where they slaughtered the animals. My cousins invited me to go with them to see the place...
WHAT ARE THE NAMES OF YOUR COUSINS, THE ONES WHO WERE PART OF THE GROUP?
... First there was a woman, who has been dead for 15 years. Her name was Fidelina Fuentes.
WHAT WAS HER JOB WITHIN THE GROUP?
... Her job was to clean and fix the guerrillas' uniforms. She did it in her house. She also stored some weapons for them. We found out when the army came to pick them up and to take her...
...I saw it. I thought that the they were guerrillas because they were wearing regular clothes -- I never saw them wearing uniforms in the mountains. On that day we were making bread and preparing for the new year's eve party, which was traditional in the village. My uncle, who was the village councilor, was going to host the celebration. My and a cousin went out to look for some canaque leaves to wrap tomales. We were climbing a small hill when we saw him - I saw a man with a weapon...
...I thought he was a guerrilla, like we had seen...
[missing one or more sentences from the original - bottom of page 2]
...My cousin and I signed to our Uncle. He called back to us to wait there. As the men came closer we realized that they were not guerrillas but the army. We ran to the corn fields. The milpas (corn plants) had corn, so they were tall enough to hide...
IN WHAT MONTH DID THIS HAPPEN?
...It was in the month of December, in 1981, because it was in the last days before the arrival of 1982 - it was New Year's Eve. This is when we ran and hid in the corn and we saw them going into my uncle's house, where my grandpa also lived...
...I kept saying, what if they take my uncle and the other cousins. I wished we wouldn't have called or signaled them . As they went in, they asked, "Are those kids up there yours?" My grandpa responded, "Yes, those are my kids. They went to pick some canaque leaves to wrap tamales. My son is going to host the New Year's Eve celebration, so we are making bread -- we are going to have a party...
WHAT IS YOUR GRANDPA'S NAME?
...His name is Macario Miranda and he is still alive. He is 97 years old. They then told my grandpa, "Lend me two boys to help us carry some things around the corner". They had left the car around the corner. It was an army car. My grandpa said that if it was only to carry things around the corner and come back, it was OK...
..."Oh, I'll go", my uncle said...
AND, WHO WENT WITH THEM THAT DAY?
...It was my uncle, rest in peace, Gabriel Miranda, who died in accident recently, and my cousin Lazaro Miran. So we saw them leave with the army and we were thinking that it was probably our fault that they were taking them. We kept hiding and watching were they were going. They went to Fidelina's house. Our relatives then came over...
...We kept looking to see who would come out. Soon, Fidelina (who is dead now) came out with her hands behind her back. I told my cousin, "Hey look, it's the army! They are taking Fidelina". Right after was my uncle, who had carried a bag with weapons. Then, my cousin came out carrying a machine. Then, the army came out also carrying bags full of whatever they had found. Then they left - who knows where they went?...
...They took everything to the car and to this day, we never heard what happened to it...
SO YOU SAW WHEN THEY TOOK YOUR COUSIN FIDELINA TO THE CAR?
...Yes. Well, not when they took her. But we saw her right when they went inside the house. According to her daughter, who was our age, when they came in, she got up and walked away from the sawing machine where she was making clothes for the guerrillas...
...She walked away and tried to get a gun to defend herself , but one of the army men hit her with his gun on her mouth so hard that she couldn't even talk after that. So, when they took her out they did not hit her any more. They had already hit her on her mouth. She never came back after they took her...
WHAT IS THE NAME OF FIDELINA'S MOM?
...Brijida Miranda. She and her husband Emilio Fuentes began spending the night at other people's places to protect themselves because they knew the army would suddenly show up at night. My cousins, who were my age, went over to my Aunt Teodora Miranda's to spend the night. They did not know where else to hide. They also went to see if the guerrillas would defend them, but they were not there anymore, they had left the camp where they had been. It was January 1, 1982. New members had graduated and they had been there three days only. It was January 1 that the army arrived and began to surround the community...
AND YOU DIDN'T REALIZE WHAT WAS HAPPENING?
...No we did not notice anything. In fact, on January 4, as I was picking grass in the fields for the cows, I saw the soldiers coming out of the fields. They told me to go to the center of the village so I got off my horse (we had a horse) and left it with them and went on foot...
AT WHAT TIME WAS THAT?
...It was about 9:00 a.m. I got up very early that morning because we had a meeting and celebration in the church at 10:00 a.m. That was a Sunday. But then, I saw the people walking down the street. They were bringing the people together at the center, where the Community Center is located. One soldier told me to get rid of the load and to hurry to the center and so I did...
... Back then, my Mom had recently given birth to my little brother, 6 or 8 days earlier, so she was in bed. She said, "I am not going. I am going to stay here. We'll see if they kill me here." We all left to the center of the village. We did not have anything to eat. It was a terrible day. We spent the whole Sunday over there. Nobody, even the animals ate that day, because there was no one to feed them. Once we all were there, the official or Captain, I don't know what he was, went up to the church tower...
...and one of them grabbed his megaphone and said, "OK, men, today you're going to say who's mixed up with the guerrillas." No one said who, because it wasn't possible to say that you are and that he wasn't. All the people were united. He continued, "If you don't get lively, we're going to say that everyone who collaborated with a grain of salt, or a single bean or grain of corn, today all those people are going to be to be executed..."
...Still, one man, a brother in the Catholic church, said, "God, don't permit this." The man [giving the orders] countered, "Put those thoughts aside. Here we're not going to speak of God. We will speak only hell, today. Line up in two rows, everyone with papers in hand, and you'll see who will be executed. You all dig a hole [to bury yourselves]." We began to line up in rows, until a man named Ernesto Velásquez was already taking a rest. He's dead now -- he died later from illness. But that day the poor man, because he wasn't lining up right, he wasn't well, one of the soldiers struck him with his rifle in his chest. He fell flat on his back and hit his head on a rock. Then they picked him up and another soldier, from the very same army, went to treat him...
...Just like that, within the same army there were a few that seemed to take pitty, and others who were like what the one said who climbed up to the belfry, "Even God doesn't hold this day in his heart."...
AND WHAT ABOUT THE MILITARY? DID THEY HAVE THEIR FACES PAINTED BLACK? OR HOW WERE THEY?
...No, at that time, no. But when they began to enter, then they were all smudged in black. Afterwards, they weren't usually like that -- although there were others squads who painted themselves. But most didn't...
SO THE ARMY CAME IN GREAT NUMBER, WITH ALL OF YOU THERE?
...Oh, God, yes. There might have been thousands. Yes, they arrived in great number. They had all the paths blocked, all the entrances, all the roads to and from the village. Everything was protected by the army. That's why there was no way to leave. Then they began the checking of identifications. They began to pass around a list...
AT WHAT TIME DID THEY BEGIN TO PASS AROUND THE LIST?
...At about 2:30 in the afternoon, until 6:30 in the evening. Night was falling, when they stopped passing the list. The one who was checking the papers -- the ID's and certificates -- he was just checking like that, nothing more. There was another who accused 3 people. They had them hooded. When I got there I looked where they were, to see if there were others. I saw the three sitting. Later they grabbed me by the shirt, right here, at my chest. "Look up," they said. We would look up. He would just look at us and say yes or no...
...There was no way to read him...you could only hope he would say no... Well, a school had previously been built there. It's now the largest school of the village. The ones that were staying, they put them in a little kitchen or in a jail that was there -- you couldn't see where... where they ended up. And we who were walking in a line, we saw those who were behind and those ahead of us, sometimes they didn't end up where we did... some would say, "Where could that one be? Look, that one didn't come and he was behind me." Or others would say, "That one was ahead of me and didn't come here." So those of us who were together crowded together all the tighter...
...And by the time the last of us had been gathered, as I say, night was coming. One of the soldiers came... he said, "Well, men... all of you that have stayed here have been freed from death..." Well, when the last one had passed by checking names to see who had been put there -- I don't know what he was trying to find out -- one of the soldiers came and said, "Men, all of you that are here have been set free, but only if you haven't dirtied your hands or if there isn't any more rotten business." He said, "There'll be no more rotten business, because if there is, we're going to keep coming back."...
... "We're going to come back because everything that was most rotten here," he said, "is gone. So from now on, we're telling you not to get mixed up in foolishness. As long as you work hard, care for your homes... and are honorable men, don't dare to get involved in taking things from people -- robbing and all of that," he said. "Because if you do, we're going to come back to kill. All of the rottenness is gone now. So you're going to your houses to sleep without saying anything or making noise. Now everyone, go home." And with that we all went, all of us who were there - both those who had and those who had not left there families there, some crying that their families had been left...
...hiding as well because suddenly we were faced with a long night ahead of us. Finally we left to go to sleep without making any noise. You couldn't hear a thing that silent day, nor did anyone eat anything. As I was telling you we had only eaten breakfast that day... there was nothing for lunch or a snack or dinner... the animals either. This is what the day was like. When the next day dawned everyone was full of pain and fear. It was terrible. SIt made you feel like leaving the village... there are some who that day took their suitcases and took off across the border, for the coast...
AND THE ARMY WASN'T THERE?
...The army -- well, some of the relatives of those of died in the massacre are regarded as brave -- they constantly left to try to find out what had been decided [about those who remained]. Well, those relatives say that the army took those people [the ones that weren't to escape death] out of the village jail and tied them to each other with their hands behind them, tied together like a chain, and they took them to the hill, the Bremedero -- where there was the camp of the Garrucha, that's what they called the camp -- and there, in that camp were the guerrillas had been, they went to kill them...
...Some they grabbed by the neck with a rope and went looking for a stick, like what we call "tortón," began to twist it, so that it pressed on the neck and they died... and others that maybe wanted to run away, they killed them away not with bullets, but with machete blows -- they cut them up with machetes. That's how two women died as well...
...Two women, young women, they cut off their breasts...
...They cut them with machetes, that's how they died. But a man who came later-- he came to live a year in the village -- he was in the massacre. He actually saw it. He says that they told him that he was going to [be a witness] to declare to others that might be involved in [the same kinds of things in ]other places or who knows what. So, luckily, they left the man alone, they didn't kill him. So he said that he saw it and that they had ordered them to dig their grave there,... once the grave was dug, they hanged them, they killed them. Then they left them half buried, about eight or ten inches beneath the earth. You could always see it...
BROTHER, WHAT WERE THE NAMES OF THOSE WOMEN WHO DIED?
...Yes, one was named Rosaria Aguilar, and the other one was named Rosaura Fuentes. They were still young -- my age; just girls. The one named Rosaura only went for three days,... she was with the guerrillas only three days, ... that was the one who got Rosaria involved. If she had only waited longer... Anyway, it was that man named Enrique Fuentes, who is now deceased -- he saw what happened, how they killed them...
...As for us -- the next day the authorities already knew -- they had already seen where they were. They came to the Auxiliary building and said the army wasn't there anymore. The authorities were from San Pedro. The judge didn't come. He just said to take down the bodies and bring them. And with that the authorities began to summon [officially record as dead] the others there. We were afraid, but the next afternoon we took bodies down, all dead. A car whose owner, if I'm not mistaken -- I believe was Javier Aguilón -- he had a pickup there -- we used it to bring down all the deceased . They were brought to San Pedro or San Marcos...
...Other relatives collected their bodies. They came for their dead relatives. They came to the village of Sacuchun. And the others who were afraid of taking their sons and relatives, they left them in the San Marcos cemetery. There they stayed...
SO FINALLY, HOW MANY BODIES DID THEY TAKE TO THE VILLAGE THAT TIME?
....I don't remember how many they took; it was a lot. Although there was a man -- when they [later] came to do the autopsy on the deceased Rosaura Fuentes, they couldn't do it -- because when he had heard people saying that they were going to take down the bodies, that man, so brave, took his daughter and buried her, further away from where everyone else was...
WHAT WAS THAT MAN'S NAME?
...Sirilo Fuentes. Ponsiano Sirilo Fuentes. His plan was to [bury] her further away. And all that happened. The story was going around that three years later he went to remove the skeleton of his daughter to take it to his [own] village cemetery. That was the idea he had. He was [in charge of taking the remains of his daughter and [his helpers?] stayed there. And that man who I was telling you earlier, who saw the massacre, [was one of his helpers] -- a helicopter came and took him. I don't know if they took him to Berlin or to the detachment there -- I don't know where it went. They handcuffed him with his hands behind his back and they put him in the helicopter. The helicopter came to get him...
HE WAS A NEIGHBOR OF THE COMMUNITY?
...Yes, his name was Enrique Fuentes and he left. They say that they arrived in the Bama Grande el Tumbador, and they say that there was a party there. And those in the army got down from the helicopter, and they left him there. They went to watch the [football] team that was playing, and for a while they were enjoying themselves there...
...they got closer to watch the game. When that man saw that they were concentrating on the game, he decided to get out of there. And with his hands behind his back he took off. And he headed straight for the coffee plantations... He got away -- who knows how he did it, because he could only use his feet to move -- because his hands didn't help him... And they took off after him but he was ahead. And they followed him... they followed him but they didn't catch him...
...And that man showed up at the Buenos Aires plantation. There [people] would go to market -- the people of Sacuchum are business people. A man was coming along with his animal and his load when [Enrique] appeared and said to him, "Do me a favor..." [The man answered,] "Well, you're Enrique," that's what he said. [Enrique responded, ] "Look, I ran away. Look at me... look at my hands behind my back..."
"...Let's go over there," he said, but he was somewhat afraid... The man saw how he came running; how all of a sudden the army appeared again. He said, "Let's go! I have a relative there, a man we can call. We'll see if he has already died or if he is still living. I don't remember his first name but his last name is Castañón. He lives near a little farm named Las Nubes..."
...And he said he recommended seeing him... because the business person was a relative of that man... So he says he told him, "Look, I'm bringing this man here... don't you have something to cut him loose?" And they cut off his shackles... And that man was set free. And he walked -- but only at night -- to get to his house. And night came...
...he came to a piece of land that he had near the village... in the mountains. And there in the mountains he stayed a long time during which, little by little, he came back to his house. And he came back to live one year. But the people told him, "Disguise yourself or try to fix your problem,"... And he didn't make up his mind. And six or eight months went by. And he thought that he was free and he began to go to san Pedro, to the city, to go shopping...
...So exactly a year later they grabbed him in San Pedro. Well, he never reappeared and who knows what happened to the man. There the poor man died...
BROTHER. HOW MANY PEOPLE DIED IN SACUCHUN? HOW MANY TOTAL?
...43 died on that very same day that they closed it off, the day of the massacre. And later another four. About six days after the massacre the paramilitaries came to finish off the others who weren't there the day of the massacre. They had the list and so they went around to see who was so and so. I don't know if they were looking for a particular Juan Aguilar -- they killed two Juan Aguilars, because there are a lot of them there with the same name. There were another three Juan Aguilars, but they killed two, and they weren't found. Rather they found one in the watering troughs. But there's one Juan who died innocently...
...Because that Juan wasn't mixed up in anything. They grabbed him near the house of a woman named Petrona Gomez and said, "Your name is Juan Aguilar" -- that's what his papers said. "Start running," that's what they said. Well, they say that no sooner than that they were telling him to run, that he ran and they killed him right there. They shot him and left him there... there they left him on the ground. They found the other one down lower... That poor Juan, they tied up his testicles with a cord and pulled him as if they were pulling a dog. How he screamed, the poor man, when he arrived at the house of someone, deceased, who was named Victoriano Castañón...
...There they caught up with, or ran into a man who was from San Cristobal Cucho, who was on his way to sell corn. He sold corn and was bringing it for the people to buy. Then they told him that he came to bring food for the guerrillas. "Start running -- hurry!" -- they tell the poor man to run, and they shot him - they left the poor man with his corn. They killed him...
...Further down they brought that Juan [Aguilar] to a flat area, a small area of grass that is close to our house. They threw him there and they stood over him. They took turns kicking him. Then they dragged him around again, pulling him by the cord they had tied to his testicles. Our neighbor's dog came up and started barking, not even that loud -- they shot it and left it there -- and kept going...
...And they came to a cemetery and they stopped him between 2 vaults and they shot him point blank in the forehead and left him dead behind the vault. And they came back. And another guy said that something was coming. A car appeared, and was coming toward them. Just as it came into view, they stopped it and got in. They used it to go and bring Braulio Velasquez from his house. They put him in the car and took off. He hasn't been seen since...
...That same day -- I don't know if it was when they were gathering below, or when they came up -- they took another man named Porfirio Aguilar. He also disappeared. So they took 2, they killed Juan Aguilar -- two Jan Aguilar's, they killed. And the man from San Cristobal Cucho. They are the ones who died after the massacre. There were around 47 or 48 people who died. This was in January, 1982.
AND THE NAMES ... DO YOU REMEMBER THE NAMES OF ALL THOSE WHO DIED?
...Yes. But not everyone. Like I said, of my cousins that were there, there were Fidelina, whom the army came for; there was Ruinaldo Fuentes, Hector Fuentes, Faul Fuentes, Rogelio Fuentes, and Maudilio Fuentes -- there were almost 6 in one family -- and from the other Fuentes family, there is Edgar Fuentes, Miguel Fuentes, and Rudi Fuentes and Canicio Fuentes -- there were 4...
OF ALL YOUR COUSINS, WHAT WAS THE NAME OF THEIR FATHER?
...Of the six -- Emilio Fuentes and Brijida Miranda. Of the other 4 -- Pedro Fuentes and Victoria Lopez, they were relatives of the Fuentes' - rather, I am related by them, by their mother, Miranda. Now they were the Fuentes family, and so was the other girl that I said was named Rosaria Aguilar. A sister and brother died and also Rosaria Aguilar and Rodrigo Aguilar, whose father is Emiliano Aguilar and [mother] is named Francisca. I don't know their last name. But in this family, 2 died...
...I realized how I say that, to me, almost nothing happened. I had seen this sort of thing much earlier [in 1975 and the years following, in Pajapita, with the FAR group]. I was telling you how my cousins kept inviting me over there to eat, to bring [things that we could get from them]. I decided not to, but others said they were going. One neighbor wasn't able to read. But there, he learned to read...
HOW MUCH TIME PASSED DURING THIS TIME OF BRINGING PEOPLE TO LEARN THERE?
...It wasn't much -- less than 3 years. After it got started, it started rapidly deteriorating. As I look back, these 3 years were bad; not because the time was so short (although that is part of it) but because of seeing what was happening as things deteriorated...
...Because of the [bad] things that they [FAR] caused, although they were committed [to a good cause]. One Holy Thursday, one of my cousins (Rolando, who is now deceased) gave me a scare. I was walking another cousin, of another family, whose name was Claudio. We went into a store to buy some candy - some tortrix. They were drinking beer. They had money on the table, but not much. But there, in their pack -- They asked for another round of beers - a lot of beers. Now your guess is as good as mine, but it sure looked like the packet they had contained money. I don't know if the guerrillas gave them that money or if they were learning to assault people for things or to rob or steal from the farms. Because there were stories that they were going to bring the stolen cows somewhere...They knew where they were going to kill them [the animals]...
AND WHAT HAPPENED WITH YOU DURING ALL THIS?
...So, he told me, "It looks like you don't approve of what I was telling you - about where you have to go. Today, you are going to dig [your own grave]!" He turned to his friends who were drinking and said, "Look at this guy! There is somebody here who is against us!." Then another said, "Let him go. We will figure out later what to do." They told me that they were going to kill me. I told my friend, "Let's get out of here." And we left...
...And I said to my cousin, "You heard what they said." "Yes," he said. "Forget it," I told him. "God knows what to do. I know that I am not involved in any of this. Neither am I going to spread any rumors that him and his friend are [wrapped up in this]. God will judge, sooner or later - I am not going to be afraid." And we started back here. While we were on the way, my cousin said, "Look at those people, how they are going up the hill. They are going to the camp of the Garrucha's [guerrillas]". Indeed, people were seen going there because, that day, they were saying that there was a doctor there and that he was giving examinations...
...They had already been giving medicines there. One of my sisters was sick. And they showed up to say that -- I don't know if my Uncle knows who advised him to tell us to go - that we should go [to the camp to see the Doctor]. We would have to see whether we could take my sister. Now when we saw all the people going -- it was Glory Saturday -- my cousin said, "Let's go and see." I told him, "Well, if I don't go, you know what he [my Uncle] said to me [to go and see the doctor]. And if I go, maybe they'll give me [medicine]. I'm going." He said, "Yes, man, we had better go to the house [clinic?]." And people went with bread and drink for the guerrillas. No one knew what would happen later. When I got back, my sister said, "Where were you?" I said, "I was over there [the camp], like our Uncles told me to. They said I should give [any medicine] only to you. They gave me an examination and they wrote me a prescription," I told her. [She asked,] "And now that you are going to buy medicine with the prescription, what happens if you go to the pharmacy and they ask where you got it, who the doctor is, if you are feeling better, etc." So she took the receipt and threw it in the fire in case anyone might pass through later and find it and tie us to the guerrillas. As it turned out, they did that anyway. And for the mere act of trying to get help, the poor gave their lives...
...There is a man in our community named Francisco Aguilar. He is around my age (he says around 30 to 33). He went and ended up staying with the guerrillas. He is still there. Before long, he became the commander of the group. One time, we were asking him why they had done this to the community. He told us, "We were not taking advantage of the community. Neither will I say that the community is taking advantage of us. I won't say that because we came to tell the truth." And this guerrilla told us all about their principles. This is why he wanted to join them, he said. This is what had to do...
...They talk like men who have been made more mature. He said it was he who was a street urchin when he joined the guerrillas. And he supported them and lived with them. He said he works in order that the Peace Accords might one day be signed. But he must also carry arms. He said he wants to talk to the people, but the people mistreat him, saying that he had been taking advantage of them, etc. And he would answer that he wasn't taking advantage of them. He said, "We don't act like undisciplined people or like children; we act like adults." But he said that that is not how others act in their presence. He said that people were dying because of their own actions. They were coming to learn how to carry arms or to steal a gun and to steal from farms or to assault people. "This is why people are dying," he said. He said that if people from the community would have controlled themselves, he would be living with them and would have no need to seek anything else...
...And after having described all this to us, and having told us that this is the reason he left, the community finally felt sorry for him. They gave him a box of [bottles full of drinking] water (one for each of the 11 guerrillas in his group). To be sure, they [the guerrillas] were somewhat afraid because earlier, when they arrived, people flocked to them there. They headed for higher [rocky] country some years after the massacre...
BROTHER, AFTER THE MASSACRE, SAY 1982, THERE WAS NO SIGN OF THE GUERRILLAS AROUND YOUR COMMUNITY?
...They didn't take off all at once. It was more like 10 years later, that they were all gone. We had heard that they were around, but they never came here. One time, I suddenly met them. I and another brother were cutting wood with a saw. He was cutting it up into smaller pieces when he says to me, "Check it out! [Guerrillas] coming from the ranch over there." "No way," I said. "See for yourself," he said. So I got up to get a better look to see them coming down, if they were indeed Guerrillas. But I think they were coming to check us out, to see if we were Guerrillas...
...They arrived and began to talk with us. So here we were, having a conversation. But it was only I who talked with them. They asked me if I we knew who they were. I said no, we had never seen them. They asked me why? Was I in the army? Why didn't I know who they were? I told them no. I told them all that I told you, that I had seen them pass-by, but I was never able to get a look at them. And they told me the same thing that that one [guy from our community who joined the Guerrillas?] had told us. That they died for such a thing for no other reason than that they couldn't take it anymore...
...And they wished us well, and said, "Make sure you don't join a group or the Army or even the Guerrillas if you don't want to. It is voluntary. We stand for the poor." And that was where I met them. They were strangers, not people from our community. Who would guess that we would talk until four in the afternoon? The next day, we went to work very early. When we arrived the army was there waiting - there, where we were working. They knew that we had been talking with them...
...I said to them, "You are standing right where we are going to work. We are wondering if there is some reason that we shouldn't work here anymore, that you are here to tell us." "No," he said. "Have any of you seen some men pass-by here yesterday?" I couldn't say No. "Yes, we did," I said. "You talked with them, didn't you," he asked. "Yes, we talked," I answered. "They were friends of your community, weren't they?," he asked. "No, no one. They were strangers. I didn't know them," I said. "They carried guns, like us, true?" "I have no idea about guns," I answered. I told them what we saw, that one was carrying a green garratón [device used for strangling??]...
"...The other was carrying a small one, like the end of my axe," I told him. "And the other drew out something else - I don't know exactly what it was, but it was about this big. I have told you all that I saw, but I don't know anything about guns". Then the other said, "Calm down. In which direction did they go," he asked. "Well, from here, they went over there," I told him." "OK. You work here. It's nothing. We are leaving," he said. There were a lot of army...
...The army squad left. And that was now, afterwards. And the people learned to get organized. They were losing their fear. And right up to today, like I told you, the people have much less fear. The guerrillas came again, saying this and that. They wasted no time in trying to capture [perceived enemies]. They wanted to take one, saying he was an ex-soldier. He had been driving to his house in a taxi with his diploma [taxi certificate?]. They stopped him took his papers and everything. They put them in the pocket of their guerrilla shirt. They wanted to take him. But the people were already gathering. They told him to let him go and to hand over his papers, because if not, they [the guerrillas?] would die or the people would die [on account of repercussions from the army]. So they thought better of it, and gave him back his papers...
SO THE PEOPLE FREED THE EX-SOLDIER?
...Yes. He wasn't taken. And when the people surrounded him and surrounded the other [the guerrilla], he began to shake. And one appeared with stones [cuentazos] in hand. Men and women and children behind the guerrillas, rocks in hand, got him out of there. There was a poor woman who was with the guerrillas who turned around and someone [threw a stone] that hit her in the head and she fell to the ground. The guerrillas stopped to shoot. And the people stopped, and blocked their way, while they got the man out of there. But, yes, they didn't kill. So that was after the people were organized and they were losing their fear people...
AND AFTER THE MASSACRE, WHEN YOU ALL TRAVELED TO THE COAST, WERE THERE ANY COMMENTARIES OF YOU THERE?
...Before, no. But after the massacre the people were saying that they came from Sacuchun -- or, the guerrillas are going. They were saying this because they knew that they had come from there and that many had been killed. So then the people were saying it not only to everyone here, but to everyone, even to those not from around there. But this is what the people were saying...
WAS IT THAT DURING THE MASSACRE, THEY WERE NOT ACCUSTOMED TO DOING THIS, [THE RIGHTS OF] THE DECEASED, THEIR [NOVENARIO], THEIR NINE DAYS?
...Some did it, but others, no...
IN THE CASE OF THE SIX WHO DIED IN THAT HOUSE?
...To those, yes, they did it. But it was like, how should I say it, under fear, looking as if they were in pain...
AS FOR THE CHURCH, WHAT WAS THE ROLE OF THE CHURCH AFTER THE MASSACRE?
...After the massacre the Church was like a refuge for the people because many refused to serve God directly. Others said they would take refuge temporarily only during the current happenings. The people began to convert to the church - they began to come daily. And it was getting difficult for the church to accommodate all of them. And so the other Protestant, Evangelical church filled-in and it began to have a lot of people -- the Catholic church also, and the one behind that. All that was surpassing the fear in the community. You could see who did it for the love of God...
...All this was going on, but as for the rest -- some walk another line, some went to another church - others to vice. But this was the [the state of the] Church...
BROTHER, YOU HAVE TOLD US A STRONG TESTIMONY OF WHAT YOU EXPERIENCED IN THE COMMUNITY; HOW THE ARMY CAME AND TREATED YOU ; HOW THEY KILLED THE PEOPLE...
...Yes. That is what I was able to see...
AND WHAT DID YOU FEEL, WHEN YOU WERE IN LINE ON THAT SUNDAY [DURING THE MASSACRE]? WHAT DID YOU FEEL AS TO HOW THE PEOPLE, YOUR NEIGHBORS, WERE SEEN? HOW WAS IT?
...I tell you. It was a day so sad, painful. There wasn't anywhere to go to try to make sense of it. That my own family member had threatened me, how he had come to say, "Today...Today, you will dig [your own grave]!"...
AND WAS HE INCLUDED IN THE GROUP?
...As for him, he was taken. They were playing football. They were going ahead of me. I told him that I came to bring hay to the mountain. And they were going ahead of me. In time, an army group appeared. And they asked them where they were going or perhaps their names. They grabbed them on that occasion and at once carried them to the mountain. They were not inside of the hide-out that we had been in. We suddenly felt afraid. He said that [they] were accusing him...
...But nothing happened to him, you know. And here, I saw such a marvelous [work] and such compassion of God that I couldn't explain it to the people what it is. They freed those that had nothing [to do with going and seeing the guerrillas]. They left them. But those that had gone there - yes, they took them... But many stayed. Today, yes, there are [those who are] investigated. But now the people are working. I saw the example - what happened in that time...
AND THAT DAY OF THE MASSACRE, THE SOLDIERS STAYED THERE THAT NIGHT?
...Midnight - no later - or not even Midnight. Perhaps around 10:00, they began to climb with those that they had captured, to the hill. Because it was now early [when they arrived]. There wasn't anyone around. It was silent. You couldn't hear any noise; not even a dog barking -- someone said that even the dogs had no idea what was going on around there. You could hear the roosters crowing far away...
AND BEFORE THIS. NO ONE ANNOUNCED WHAT WAS GOING TO HAPPEN? NO ONE IMAGINED ANYTHING?
...No one, unless they might have escaped...
BUT THE CAPTURE OF YOUR COUSIN, FIDELINA - DIDN'T THIS CAUSE FEAR AMONG THE PEOPLE, THE POPULATION?
...Yes, of course. Even I, myself, was now saying, "Now that they have taken her, she is going to say who the others are. They are going to come." But perhaps people were thinking of what had happened in other places; people were taken one by one. No one believed that it was going to be any different. But here, they surrounded the people. In total, 45 died in one day. And the rest were after the massacre - 6 days later, because it was Sunday -- Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday -- the army arrived again - to take everyone. That is what I could see. This is the way I began to figure time, because in that time, I was 16 years old, in 1982 - at least, I figure so...
...The children were crying when they were gathering everybody. They were hungry. They were crying because of hunger and also because the soldiers. It touched the conscience. Where were they going to go when all the houses were locked? They just wanted to get something for their little brothers and sisters who were close. But those that were far away... hunger thundered that day...
THAT DAY, WHEN THE SOLDIERS WERE TAKING EVERYONE FROM THEIR HOUSES, THEY DIDN'T ABUSE YOU IN YOUR HOUSES?
...I would say, yes, in a few cases, they took money, or some things of value. In a few cases, I knew that they had raped some women. At least, this is what I heard. That day, when they were rounding-up the people, and others, they forced into the center, you might say, they committed plenty of abuse. I tell you, they didn't come in the name of God. God wasn't with them. It is a story that we will remember...
...So I will tell you about my children. They died. Whether it was the guerrillas or the army, they were both part of the events. But all in all I say, as I have told you, the army is to blame; they killed them. As I have said, it is a story to tell to our children, if we are able to see. As for my relatives, [the one that] was born, no one realized [at the time] that he was born in the worst time of violence...
WHAT IS HIS NAME NOW?
... Isaiah. Yes, as he had recently been born when all that was [happening]. It was a damaged community in the time of [Fernando Romeo] Lucas. And like the Mayor that was elected that year, Ponciano Fuentes - we were throwing his reception party and had a fiesta with him. He [Isaiah] was known not to be clean with anyone. I said to my Uncle, "[Isaiah] arrived this evening - he is asking for you to give him a place to stay. But [my Uncle] told him, "There is no room - only for my daughter. Half the time you are a slob. You teach your children to walk a bad road. You will see where you end up, but don't ask me to do anything for you," he said...
"...I teach you to work with a machete and a hoe", [my Uncle] said, "or to work a business. But not this type of thing." Then my uncle felt for this brother who was asking refuge. Then he said, "Let papa get to sleep. You can stay in the kitchen," he said. "I will make up a bed." And he stayed there in the kitchen. We were in the room. And my grandfather was angry because now he was awakened - he and his grand-daughter. He didn't know why all this was happening. But they knew why they had done it...
YOUR COMMUNITY NEVER HAD CIVIL AUTO-DEFENCE PATROLS HERE?
...Yes. I was in Patrol Number 14. This was when Rios Montt began to organize patrols. But we never found anything...
HOW LONG DID THE PATROL WORK HERE?
...All throughout 11 or 12 years...
[END OF ORIGINAL]
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